龚鹏程对话海外学者第四十一期：在后现代情境中，被技术统治的人类社会，只有强化交谈、重建沟通伦理，才能获得文化新生的力量。这不是谁的理论，而是每个人都应实践的活动。龚鹏程先生遊走世界，并曾主持过“世界汉学研究中心”。我们会陆续推出“龚鹏程对话海外学者”系列文章，请他对话一些学界有意义的灵魂。范围不局限于汉学，会涉及多种学科。以期深山长谷之水，四面而出。
易米尔·格拉姆波斯教授（Professor Imre Galambos）
英国剑桥大学亚洲及中东研究系东亚研究教授、博士生导师
龚鹏程：您好。在研究如敦煌地区非汉字书写传统对汉文写本文化的影响，您的主要成果是什么？
易米尔·格拉姆波斯：龚教授，您好。现在当谈到东亚，我们可能直接会联想到各国都有自身的语言，但实际上语言（包括书面语言）一直是在相互影响的。尽管写本传统多是在书写传统的基础上发展而成的，但不同的写本文化之间也一直存在着千丝万缕的关联。其中一些关联是受宗教的影响而达成的，如佛教最初传播到中国，而后又传播到东亚的其他国家。不过贸易、外交和战争亦对各国间的语言与文化交流起到重要作用。因此，用汉语书写的写本和用其他语言写成的写本不可避免地相互影响。在古丝绸之路上，现隶属中国领土的多个地区都有各种书写语言，包括藏语、回鹘语、粟特语、于阗语、西夏语、蒙语、梵语和吐火罗语。现存中世的写本印证了这些非汉语写成的写本对汉文写本的影响。当中最明显可见的影响之一，就是九世纪在敦煌出现的书籍装订形式，当时的敦煌已不再是唐朝的一部分。新的装订形式包括册子本、梵夹装和经摺装，均未见于先前的汉文写本传统中。另一个是九世纪至十世纪间，在敦煌出现了从左至右书写汉文的现象。从左至右横向的书写方式显然是受到了吐蕃的影响，而从左到右的竖列书写则可能是受到回鹘语或粟特语写本文化的影响。最后一个影响，是在八世纪末当吐蕃人控制了敦煌后，人们用硬笔而非毛笔来书写汉字，这也是从吐蕃文化中借鉴过来的。
Although we often think of East Asia in terms of the countries that make it up today, each with their own language, in reality languages (including written ones) have always been in contact with each other. Although manuscript traditions developed along with written languages, there has been a continuous interaction between different manuscript cultures. Some of these contacts were the result of religion interaction, such as the spread of Buddhism to China, and later to other countries in East Asia. But trade, diplomacy and warfare were just as important in creating exchanges between languages and cultures. Because of such contacts, manuscripts written in Chinese and other languages inevitably influenced each other. Along the Silk Road, in the region that forms the territory of China today, there was a variety of written languages, including Tibetan, Old Uyghur, Sogdian, Khotanese, Tangut, Mongolian, Sanskrit and Tocharian. Manuscripts surviving from the pre-modern period attest to the impact of manuscripts written in these languages on Chinese manuscripts. One of the most visible effects is the appearance of new bookbinding forms in Dunhuang during the ninth century, which at that point was no longer part of the Tang empire. The new bookbinding forms included the codex (cezi 册子), the pothi (fanjiazhuang 梵夹装) and the concertina (jingzhezhuang 经摺装), which have not been in use before for Chinese manuscripts. Another highly visible phenomenon was writing Chinese from left to right, which was, once again, something that we see in Dunhuang during the ninth and tenth centuries. Writing this way horizontally was clearly a Tibetan influence, whereas writing in vertical columns from left to right was probably the result of interaction with Old Uyghur or Sogdian manuscript culture. Finally, when the Tibetans took control over Dunhuang in the late 8th century, people started using a pen (yingbi 硬笔) to write Chinese characters instead of a brush, borrowing this from Tibetan culture.
龚鹏程：你曾在匈牙利求学，这让我想起了斯坦因。他之所以去敦煌，是受其老师洛克齐（Lajos De Loczy）的影响。洛克齐早在一八七九年就访问过敦煌，也被视为将敦煌介绍给欧洲的第一人。许多中国人可能不知道这个故事。你能浅谈一下在布达佩斯汉文写本研究的起源吗？以及目前的研究状况。
易米尔·格拉姆波斯：斯坦因（Aurel Stein）确实生于匈牙利，尽管他后来到奥地利求学，并辗转德国与英国等地。在毕业后，他并未在匈牙利找到工作，这也是为何他后来到了英属印度的拉合尔工作的原因。斯坦因四次对中国西部的考察之旅，也正是从那里展开的。约从十九世纪初开始，匈牙利人非常热衷于寻找自身民族的根，并想象自己的始祖来自亚洲。这使他们对亚洲产生了兴趣，尽管这个兴趣更与中亚而非中国有关。汉学在二战前才开始。有趣的是，匈牙利汉学的奠基人之一李盖提（Louis Ligeti）曾在巴黎师从伯希和（Paul Pelliot），而伯希和也曾在敦煌获取了部分重要写本。在此之前，尽管一直有旅行者与传教士到访中国，匈牙利人似乎对亚洲其他地区更感兴趣。也正因此，斯坦因的探险队只到了中国的西部地区，因为他自身的兴趣主要是印度与波斯诸文明之间的影响。他也曾在一九三零年造访南京，却只为了得到其时中国政府的许可，允许他进行第四次对新疆的考察而已。有趣的是，虽然作为一名波斯语与古梵语的学者，斯坦因却是汉文写本其中最主要的获取人。当然，随着这些发现令他声名大噪，他也逐渐意识到这些写本的重要性。这也是为何在展开第四次考察之前，时年六十八岁的斯坦因会积极学习中文的主要原因。
Aurel Stein was indeed born in Hungary, although later he went on to study in Austria and then Germany and England. After graduation, he was not able to get a job in Hungary, which is why he took up a post in Lahore, in British India. And it is from there that he led his 4 expeditions to Western China. Since at least the beginning of the 19th century, Hungarians have been extremely interested in their roots, which they imagined in various parts of Asia. This generated a steady interest in Asia, although this was more in the direction of Central Asia than China. Chinese language teaching only began before World War II. Interestingly, Louis Ligeti, one of the founding figures of Hungarian sinology, had been studying in Paris with Paul Pelliot, who had also acquired an important collection of manuscripts at Dunhuang. But before that time, the Hungarians seemed to be more interested in other regions of Asia, even though there had been travelers and missionaries who visited China. It is no coincidence, for example, that Aurel Stein led his expeditions exclusively to the western parts of China, as his own interests primarily lay in the influences of Indic and Iranian civilizations. He did travel to Nanjing in 1930, for example, but only to get permission from the Chinese government for his 4th expedition to Xinjiang. In a way, it is ironic that he, a scholar of Iranian and Sanskrit languages, was the one who acquired one of the most important collections of Chinese manuscripts. Of course, as these finds generated quite a bit of fame for him, he grew very much aware of their significance. This was also the reason why before he embarked on his 4th expedition, at the age of 68, he was actively learning Chinese.
龚鹏程：你是欧洲汉文写本研究协会的主席，可否请您分享下目前欧洲对黑水城西夏写本与吐鲁番回鹘文残卷的研究现状？
易米尔·格拉姆波斯：实际上，我已经不是协会主席了；现在的主席是威尼斯大学的艾帝（Attilio Andreini）教授。我曾任职主席数年，也因而有幸在剑桥主办一场会议，欢迎来自世界各地研究汉文写本的学者们来访。这样的会议总是非常具有启发性的，因为它让研究不同时期和不同类型写本的学者得以有机会聚集在一起。有关西夏文的写本与印本，藏在圣彼得堡的科兹洛夫所得西夏文献可谓是世界上最丰富的，自一九零八年发现黑水城遗址以来，俄罗斯学者一直处于此研究的前沿。藏在伦敦大英图书馆的斯坦因所得西夏文献虽在数量上相对较少，却也至关重要。然而，西方对西夏语和西夏文献的研究却远不及中国活跃。或更确切地讲，西方从事西夏学的学者要少得多。在欧洲，相关研究多集中在法国、英国、俄罗斯和德国，而主要领域为语言学、佛教研究、艺术史和文献学。通常情况下，会涉及西夏研究的学者大多也同时从事其他语言的研究，如汉语或古藏语，似乎没有学者只从事西夏研究。虽然积极投身西夏学的学者相对较少，但从成果而言却是相当卓著的。每年或每隔一年都会有一场会议发生在欧洲的某个城市，正是在这些会议上，我们有机会看到彼此正在研究的课题，并了解到西夏研究最前沿的课题。当然，我们与中国和日本的学者始终保持紧密联系，因此我们也知道他们最新的研究成果——我们从来无需孤军奋战。不可否认的是，西夏研究的未来必须建立在相互合作之上，不同国家的学者都可从中获益。
Actually, I am no longer president of the association, I handed over the title to my colleague Prof. Attilio Andreini of Ca' Foscari University in Venice. I had been the president for several years before that, which also means that I had a chance to host a conference in Cambridge welcoming scholars working on Chinese manuscripts from around the world. Such conferences are always very inspiring, as they bring together people working on different periods and very different types of manuscripts.With regard to Tangut manuscripts and printed books, the Kozlov collection in St. Petersburg is the largest in the world, and Russian scholars have been at the frontline of research since the discovery of the ruins of Khara-khoto in 1908. The Stein collection in the British Library in London is considerably smaller but still quite important. Nevertheless, Tangut language and texts are much less studied in the West than in China. Or to be more exact, there are much fewer scholars who do research on Tangut. In Europe, the main countries where research happens are France, Britain, Russia and Germany, and the main areas are linguistics, Buddhist studies, art history and textual studies. Typically, scholars involved with Tangut studies also work on other languages, such as Chinese or Tibetan, I don’t think there is anyone who only works on Tangut. Despite the relatively small number of individuals actively contributing to this type of research, I do think that the results are excellent. Every year or every other year there is a conference in one of the European cities, and it is at these meetings that we have a chance to see what each of us is working on at the moment and what the most exciting new directions are. Of course, we are all in touch with scholars in China and Japan, and so we are aware of their results – we never have to work in isolation. It is undeniable that the future of the field lies in collaboration, and researchers in different countries can benefit immensely from working closer together.
龚鹏程：可否请你谈一下在剑桥大学教授的课程：“中国汉唐史——敦煌与丝绸之路”？这门课程的主要期许是什么？
易米尔·格拉姆波斯：我所教授的“敦煌与丝绸之路”课程是本科四年级学生的选修课之一。它包含十六讲，讲述了从五至十世纪敦煌在丝绸之路上的概况，并着重强调了该地作为东西方交汇点的重要性。这门课引导学生思索敦煌学究竟在何种层面上促进了我们对中国中古史、社会与文化的理解。课程涵盖面很广，包括了宗教、文学、科学与教育，并解释了为何丝绸之路对当代东亚与西方有着如此大的吸引力。起初，我将这门课作为向本科生介绍自己研究的一种方式，使其能以一种更易理解的形式，传递给对相关内容不太熟悉的听众。我当时也想过将焦点放在自己所主要研究的敦煌写本上，可很快就意识到自己必须将其与丝绸之路的概念结合在一起，因为在英国，丝绸之路这一名称要比敦煌更为人熟知。在尝试构建相关课程的大纲时，我立刻发现自己所需涵盖的内容，远非自己已发表的内容可以穷尽。因此，为了能更全面地覆盖丝绸之路与其历史，我必须同时仰仗其他学者的研究。当然，这也意味着我必须利用大量其他课题的研究成果，而这也使我在准备这门课的过程中获益良多。如果能有学生在修读完这门课之后，选择丝绸之路研究作为其研究或博士生课题，我自然是无比欣喜的。
My course on Dunhuang and the Silk Road is one of the optional courses 4th year undergraduate students can choose. It is a series of 16 lectures that provide an overview of the oasis city of Dunhuang along the Silk Road between the 5th and 10th centuries, with a particular emphasis on it being a meeting point between East and West. It examines the ways in which “Dunhuang studies,” an academic field that emerged from the study of Dunhuang manuscripts, contributed to our understanding of medieval Chinese history, society and culture. The course explores various aspects of contemporary life, including religion, literature, science and education. It also explains why the Silk Road holds such a fascination for the modern imagination both in East Asia and the West. Originally, I had planned the course as a way to introduce my own research to undergraduate students, to present my publications in a more digestible form for a less specialized audience. I also wanted to talk about Dunhuang manuscripts, which was my own area of research, but soon realized that I had to pair it with the idea of the Silk Road, which is a name much more recognizable in Britain than Dunhuang. However, as I was trying to create a rounded structure for the course, it became clear that I had to talk about so much more than what I have published or was writing on. Accordingly, to achieve a more or less comprehensive coverage of the Silk Road and its pre-modern history, I had to mostly rely on research done by others. Of course, this also meant that I had to gather a considerable amount of material I was less familiar with, and the course has been extremely educational for me, too. I am, of course, also glad to see when an undergraduate student who takes this course, continues with his or her studies and goes on to an MA or PhD degree in this field.
龚鹏程：有许多来自不同文化族群，例如西夏人与回鹘人所写的汉文写本。汉文书写传统从何种层面上影响了这些群体的写本文化呢？
易米尔·格拉姆波斯：现今中国所覆盖的地区在过去两千年内一直是东亚文化的核心区域。这个区域历朝历代一直都在使用汉文，这也是为何我们今天会把它们视作是“中国的”，尽管在中古时期，“中国”这一概念与我们现在所理解的并不相同。当我们回溯过去，正是语言和文字将这个区域串联起来。几个世纪以来，也有许多与这个区域比邻而居的群体使用汉文文本。在我所主要研究的七至十二世纪，这一现象在所谓丝绸之路上尤为显著。在这一时期，我们可见有大量其他文化的群体存在并活跃于汉文化的边陲之地。当中最主要的几个（至少在我看来）有回鹘、吐蕃和西夏，他们均受到了汉文文献与汉字的影响。这种影响在西夏文字中尤为显著，其明显是受到了汉字的启发，这也是为何学者有时会将之称作“汉字型”文字的原因。它并未直接以汉字为基础，因此没有相通的字词，甚至连部分相似的都没有。然而其书写方式却又形似汉文，并显然遵循了后者相同的造字法。而如果来到回鹘人这边，我们可以看见他们不仅将中国的佛教文献翻译成回鹘语，甚至会用回鹘字母来转写汉文文献。亦即该文本语言虽然还是汉语，但辅以回鹘字母来标音。有时回鹘人也会使用汉文写成的文本，却以自己的语言来诵读，这点类似于日本人诵读古代汉语的习惯。吐蕃人也会用古藏文来转写一些汉文文本。不仅如此，他们还借用了汉文写本的卷轴形式来装订古藏文写本。实际上有不少类似的例子，足以证明汉文写本文化与其他写本文化之间的联系，而这从未都不是单向的，而是通过交互关系达成的，并由此影响了彼此的写本传统。
The area we know as China today has been the core region of East Asian civilization for the past two millennia. The states and dynasties in this region have used the Chinese script, which is why we see them today as “Chinese”, even though during the medieval period the concept of China had not yet developed. So the language and the script unifies this region as we look back at it. It is no surprise that over the centuries there were also many other groups who lived in close proximity with the cultures that used Chinese texts. This was particularly so along the so-called Silk Road, during the period I study, i.e. the 7th through the 12th centuries. In this period, we see a number of non-Chinese cultures that existed along or beyond the borders of the Chinese states. The most important ones (at least from my perspective) were the Uyghurs, Tibetans and Tangut, all of which were influenced by Chinese texts and the Chinese script. This influence is very visible in the Tangut script, which was clearly inspired by Chinese characters, and this is reason scholars sometimes call it a ”sinoform” script. It was not directly based on the Chinese script, and so there are no matching characters or even parts of characters. But the strokes are clearly Chinese, and so are the principles used for creating characters from components. Then, if we turn to the Uyghurs, we can see that they not only translated Chinese Buddhist texts into Uyghur but sometimes also transcribed them using the Uyghur script. In other words, the language stayed Chinese but it was now written phonetically with the Uyghur script. At times, the Uyghurs would also use texts written in Chinese and read them in their own language, similar to how the Japanese can read texts written in classical Chinese. The Tibetans also transcribed some Chinese texts using the Tibetan alphabet. Just as importantly, they also borrowed the Chinese scroll form to write Tibetan texts. There are actually quite a few similar examples of contact between Chinese and non-Chinese manuscript cultures. It was almost never a one-way influence, but an interaction that led to changes on both sides.
龚鹏程
龚鹏程，1956年生于台北，台湾师范大学博士，当代著名学者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。
办有大学、出版社、杂志社、书院等，并规划城市建设、主题园区等多处。讲学于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、台北、巴黎、日本、澳门等地举办过书法展。现为美国龚鹏程基金会主席。
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